Is outbound sales really possible in a post-pandemic world?
My guest today says yes, and he’s here to prove it to us.
On this episode of Closing Time.
Thanks for tuning into Closing Time, the show for go to Market Leaders.
I’m Val Riley, head of marketing for Unbounce, Insightly CRM and LeadsRx.
Today I am joined by Marcus Chan.
He is CEO and founder of Venli, a Sales. Consultancy.
Marcus, welcome to the show.
I’m excited to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
Awesome. So as a market leader,
I always want to hear that my sales team is doing outbound.
I think it makes them appreciate inbound leads, but I also feels like
feel like it helps them become more well-rounded as a sales professional.
What benefits do you see when salespeople do outbound?
Yeah, I’m a firm believer.
If you know how to do outbound in any market, you’ll never go hungry.
And I’ll give you a really simple example.
So I’m in. Remember years ago.
I’m a brand new sales all struggling.
I didn’t have a great territory.
And there’s a guy, Tim, on my team who got a lot of inbound leads.
And this is right before the recession hit, 2007.
And I never got any inbound leads. But he got tons and he closed them.
He ran circles around me and kind of bragged about that.
Now I just kind of figure out how to do outbound, how to start having success.
As his leads dried up,. I continued to have success.
And while everyone else is closing, maybe one, one half deals a month at max,
I was closing 8 to 10 deals each month consistently.
Not because I was any better at closing, because I was better
at generating pipeline consistently, even when no one else could.
So it’s a key skill to develop in today’s time.
So you’re not entirely reliant on just pure inbound leads.
There was definitely a moment in 2022 when it seemed
like the pandemic killed outbound for good.
They were no more office numbers to try.
You couldn’t surf that switchboard and see if you can get to a person directly.
Connect rates plummeted.
What was your take during that time?
So that was a, for sure, a legitimate, like thing
that was happening across the market.
So many office people were working from home, from leaders all the way down.
You know, there were not as many direct dials.
And I’ll say right after it started to happen,
where it was hard to get hold people, it’s true.
Connect rates definitely, they shot down and I’ll say,
even to this day, they still have not recovered for sure.
That’s just the reality.
But the reality is, is
if it has gone down, which it has for sure,
or has been even more critical actually multi-threading
and hitting on multiple channels.
So it’s not just easier just calling one channel or emailing only.
You need to hit a multiple channels, actually get a hold of your prospects
and that’s going to help drive up obviously
your, you know, your actual connect rate.
Actually book a meeting.
On top of that multi-threading through the organization.
That’s absolutely critical as well.
But what I want to say, though, on top of that is
if you want to be really great at booking, a lot of pipeline,
you have to be really great when you have that conversation as well.
And I see a lot of times today people complain about connect rates,
but when they do connect,
they have a really low conversion rate on that call because they’re not ready
for that conversation, they didn’t properly research.
And if they almost fumble the opportunity.
And when you think about this,
let’s just say if 100 calls and they have what’s called 5% connect rate.
So they have five conversation out of 100,
if they’re
only have a 20% conversion on that call, they’re actually
doing themselves a disservice because now they talk to five.
They’re only booking one.
So if you we can’t always control the connect rate,
but we can focus on multi-threading
and working multiple channels to increase rates a little bit.
But more importantly,
when you’re able to have a live conversation, how effective are you
as a professional to actually convert that person into an actual meeting?
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Because from what I’m hearing, you’re saying I’m a sales rep.
I have to make 100, I think, be prepared for 100 conversations.
And I’m probably going to only have five.
So how can you be prepared for those five and prepare
for all hundred, not knowing which five you’re actually going to connect?
Yeah, a great question.
So I think what breaks down to is first off,
you should be segmenting your list very clearly.
Not in the perfect world,. I’d say as a sales.
If you’re a sales lead of an organization, make it easier for your reps.
Segment out the accounts you know, tier ones two and three, right.
So the tier one’s going to be
the people who have the highest likelihood to actually convert.
So you know there might be buying triggers.
They fall within your ideal customer profile.
You know,
there are certain size
and certain criteria that fit within it, right, that you’re reaching out to.
So it’s a it’s a clear it’s a very similar message across the board.
So when you reach out to them,
whether or not do a lot of research,
at least you’re talking about the same problems.
It allows you to have a same type of conversation across the board.
Now, in order to prepare.
And again, it depends on what type of role you’re in.
Like if you’re an account executive,
you know, realistically you’re probably not making 100 calls per day.
That’s just probably not going to be realistic given
the other responsibilities you have to do in your role.
Let’s say, for example, you’re going to be making, let’s call it 20 calls per day.
We’ll probably research, you know, look in advance using lotta tools
like AI can help prepare you.
So you’re actually live on the call.
You can have an insightful conversation.
At the end of the day, you should know the ins and outs of that prospect’s
pains and frustrations and issues before they even answer the call.
So when they do answer, you’re ready to go.
The other piece is is do you know your talk track well enough?
And I find a lot of salespeople do not.
So when that prospect answers
every call, they have starts differently to say different things or inconsistent.
And they’re almost fumbling, hoping, not hoping for
their talent is going to help them answer and have a great conversation.
Instead, have frameworks you follow that allow you
to tick conversations down the same path every single time,
and then you lean on some research as well to have a better conversation.
I do love that, AI tip.
I actually went to AI and said
I am pitching Valerie Riley.
What are some things. I should know about her?
And I got to see how accurate the AI was,
and and it was pretty darn good, actually.
So that’s a super good tip for salespeople who are,
you know, trying to do a ton of research and,
and don’t want it to consume all of their time.
exactly. Right.
Now, I would recommend you batch your research. Right.
So let’s call a two hour block on a Friday and your, your, your research
and all your whole list to get ready for next week.
So this way you’re not making a call and then research.
You’re just going to dial down the list and be consistent executing the outbound
you want to do.
Nice, I love that.
So, we’ve talked a little bit about things that reps can do,
but I’d like to flip it and talk a little bit about leadership.
How should organizational leadership be set up to really make outbound successful?
So first off
this is a transformation across the board and involves all parties.
And there is change leadership as part of it.
Now you know years ago I used to run an. I ran a full outbound org.
We had zero marketing leads.
And we generate typically 4 to 6. X pipeline coverage every single week.
Now I had a pretty big org.
So that was over 70 million in net new business
logo pipeline every single week.
But it wasn’t by accident.
It was very, very intentional.
And to roll through my whole
entire organization from the very top down, down to the individual.
So it’s about creating that culture.
Now let’s get really tactical here, because it can’t just be about fluffy,
you know, fluffy like make it a culture.. It has to be internalized.
So the first thing we did
before we do anything else was we ran the realistic sales map.
So we knew if we looked at the low performers, what would they need
to generate in terms of number of meetings based on their ACV and their win rate?
Okay.
And use it as a benchmark and to teach the org the why behind the math.
So this we had a very clear number that we need a set X amount of meetings
per person as an org.
And we didn’t base it off the best rep or the average we based on the worst rep.
Very intentional.
Because obviously if you have a better rep who has a higher win rate, higher ACV,
he it’s they’re going to actually crush the numbers.
And you don’t have as many meetings.
So that’s like the first run the math.
So the math makes sense.
You know how to explain the math but more importantly
explain the math how it benefits them personally.
So for instance, I’ll bring a new hire on.
I will uncover what’s most important for them.
They would tell me things like they wanted to make X amount of dollars a year.
They wanted to earn half $1 million a year.
They wanted to retire their spouse.
They want to hit president’s club, whatever they told me.
And I’ll show them the math and how to work backwards.
How many meetings they generate every single week.
So I link that directly together.
So i wouldn’t say, hey, here’s how you hit a quota I like, here’s how you buy
your dream house, here’s how you retire spouse.
And we established that by running that math.
That’s number one.. So once we do the math that sounds great.
But what do you have to do every single week?
We then also set really clear prospecting times.
The entire org is prospecting okay.
That’s either every day or every single week.
So for instance,
you know, we did Mondays and Mondays, Wednesdays from 8 to 12 p.m.
that was set. And we did as an org. Right.
Other regions have had some,
some that didn’t like, you know, maybe every single day for two hours.
Either way, you choose a really set structure, okay.
And then that structure has to work together.
So for my in person teams, they would do it in person for my remote teams.
They would hop onto Zoom or Microsoft Teams and everyone’s on mute
and they’re calling in that time.
And there’s a set cadence of that time.
So for instance, the way we did it was 50 minutes on a ten minute break.
So 50 minutes, everyone’s making calls and everyone’s dialing.
And that’s the they’re not researching.
They’re not writing emails, they’re making calls.
And then there’s a ten minute break at the very, at the break.
And they take the break
and everyone shares, goes off mute and they share their actual results
of what they accomplish in the last hour, how many calls
they make, how many meetings they booked and who they booked with.
And then people get to share wins together.
So there’s high accountability part of it.
Now here’s what’s really key.
The leader is also in there too.
So the leader themselves is listening in.
They’re coaching their making their own calls.
They’re leading from the front.
So this is not an armchair quarterback situation.
You’re leader in front as a leader.
So this is where it’s really critical to have this type of thing in place, alright?
Now, on top of that you want to incorporate also
a public accountability system.
So if it’s if it’s virtual, that means then you pull up a tracker.
Everyone’s putting in their numbers for how many calls,
how many meetings they booked.
So it’s clear accountability across the board and you’re driving success.
If you’re in person, you can do on a whiteboard.
Same thing, and you just rinse and repeat that.
Now, what this does mean as well is in order to run this highly effectively,
you want to onboard effectively, train
effectively all of these core skills of how do you actually prospect
on the phones, write email, do that type of stuff.
And when you do it consistently,. I mean, it becomes like clockwork.
And I remember just taking over teams like this
that would not do this before they start doing this.
And it’s amazing how quickly results are turning around,
because you’re helping guide the reps on how to be successful.
And of course, if they have low conversions,
then you can coach accordingly on the key skills.
They actually get better handling, objections, multi-threading,
and whatever else you need to do to book more meetings.
You know, my question was about leadership.
But what I really heard from you is that there’s just that, a camaraderie
of everybody really working together, shoulder to shoulder with the leaders.
When you do those sort of times where everybody is prospecting together
and that that’s got to really help the reps feel like,
you know, the rejection and the and the discomfort of outbound.
It kind of soothes it when you have that whole team working on it.
At the same time.
You’re 100% right.
So what happens is
when everyone feels like they’re aligned in a mission, they’re doing it together.
They feel less lonely when versus when they’re on their own.
They’re making calls in their own place and getting beat up.
Get their face kicked in. They’re like, oh, my.
You know, my job is hard.. I have a bad territory, a bad prospect.
But when they see everyone else is doing as well, doing their best,
getting hit with objections, it is wildly powerful.
And that’s why it’s really key.
As a leader, you should also show your team that you can help them too.
So leadership is not about a top down approach of you must do this.
It starts from really, you know, setting the vision
but doing the math, creating the systems around it.
But then on top of that, being in trenches with them
because it’s it’s amazing how fast can turn results around
if you actually get in front
of the actual source of what they’re actually doing
to see what they’re actually doing.
And what’s amazing, when you do see that, you see a lot of times
they just need a little bit of coaching guidance
to actually get better results, and that’s really it. Nothing crazy.
So. Yeah, let’s.
Let’s talk about that a little bit more.
Do you think that organizations should have teams
that are strictly outbound and strictly, and teams that are strictly inbound,
or do you feel like it’s better when sales professionals do both?
So really great question.
I think I’m biased because I grew up as a full cycle seller.
I’ve only ran full cycle teams where we never had SDRs we never had BDRs.
We did everything cold to sold, and then we hand it on from there.
So I think I’m a little biased.
But I believe everyone should have outbound as part of the responsibility.
Right?
Especially for AEs, because when you own the outbound
piece, you’re you’re owning your future.
You are you’re you’re saying, okay, you know what?
Regardless of whatever SDR leads are getting and getting brought in,
I’m also going to control and focus on my territory as well.
Now the cool part is, is like, if you’re an organization that has SDR
and you have AEs who do outbound as well, then you can also divide and conquer.
So for instance, you can have your AEs then work your tier one accounts.
You know the biggest opportunities, the best growth signals, the ones the huge
the biggest amounts of growth.
And they can work on those specific with smaller portfolios accounts.
And then you have the SDRs work the other accounts as well,
which are still worth closing and working the deal.
But maybe they don’t need the level of sophistication
that may require of a more complex account.
So, I’m a firm believer that’s a key way to do it, because on top of that,
then you also don’t absolve the. AE of saying, well, I’m not performing
because of the leads, because of my SDR or whatever it’s going to be.
They have more ownership in their actual results.
I love it.
What are the.
How about, SDRs working marketing
generated leads versus AEs working marketing generated leads?
Do you have an opinion there?
Is it like tiers of leads that should be handled by different, sales roles?
Or, is there some other system that you feel like works?
Yeah. Great question.
Generally speaking, I have no problem with any of the marketing marketing leads.
I don’t think it should be like, you know, only
you get marketing, you know, marketing leads.
However, as you and I both know, not every marketing lead is as a sales
qualified lead.
You know, not every MQL is SQL, that’s just the reality, right?
Like, if I if I control the organization,
I would want you if they were considered like tier one accounts.
Right.
These are ones that are they fit within a certain like, you know, a profile
or maybe a certain size, maybe revenue size or opportunity size or growth size,
and they’re most likely.
Plus you also have specific growth signals.
You know, those ones should go in my opinion should go right to the AE.
The AE should be working those specifically because generally speaking,
you know, it’s very rare to find SDRs who have been in a role for like,
you know, let’s call it ten years
and they have a wealth of like business acumen, experience.
So for some of some of those, highly enriched leads are
more likely to qualify or they may maybe more work
because maybe it’s a C level executive.. It’s something complex.
They should have a more skilled professional handle the conversation.
Because ultimately I’m a firm believer whoever is the most skilled,
is the one that should have a conversation
because that’s an increase the likelihood actually
turns are real opportunities to convert to close.
I have really enjoyed our conversation, Marcus.
And I’ve been in B2B SaaS for a very long time, and I want to say how many years?
But, and every organization I’ve been, involved in as a marketing leader,
I’ve only had across the years, maybe
less than 5% of opportunities being generated by outbound.
So hearing you talk
so enthusiastically about outbound gives me a little bit of hope.
I just I really feel like there’s a lot of organizations out there
who are 100% inbound or, you know, 90 plus percent inbound.
What would you say to those organizations?
I think just leaving stuff on the table.
100%.
When you are waiting for just purely inbound,
you are saying, hey, I’m just gonna depend on the market, control my results.
Right.
And I think the best we kind of think about this is what
if we can look at other industries outside of SaaS
that have been running for 50, 60, 70, 80, 100 plus years that have grown through
purely outbound channels that are B2B, what have they done?
What are they doing?
So I’ll give you a really simple example. Right.
So what a good example is a company, waste management.
Waste management is an $81 billion. I think it’s $81 billion, $81 billion.
Huge company okay.
Huge company breaks down to
and they specifically are primarily outbound organization.
So they’ve been around they’ve gone through many, many recessions.
Right.
And they sell not something it’s not sexy at all.
Waste management services to businesses, right.
And they’re primarily outbound field sales force.
So meaning they have people that are out in the field
meeting with prospects in person.. They’re also doing virtual as well.
They’re doing outbound calls, they’re literally doing all of the above.
The question you want to ask yourself as a sales leader is that’s interesting.
They grew to this massive size and they’re publicly traded.
If our SaaS and we want to get to that level,
what lessons can we learn from there about their sales force?
You can also borrow some of the cool parts of like the technology piece of SaaS.
So these companies are not, as you know, savvy with.
But if we can incorporate
some of those of the SaaS technology and some of the outreach tools,
and we combine it with how they train their sales force,
how they structure their sales,
or how structured the organization combined together.
It opens up whole new doors as well.
And ultimately, when you think about this, you know,
when you have a repeatable motion that is outbound base,
generally speaking, it can actually increase your enterprise value as well,
because now, you know, it’s a repeatable process across the board
that’s not purely dependent on, say, you know, ads or something like that
or marketing content.
But if you can do both, if you can have incredible marketing
and you can have incredible outbound and you can combine together, it’s
like one of the most beautiful things you can see.
Like, I’ll give you an example, even from my own small business, right?
Like once. I once I had complete control my marketing
and I could create inbound leads and do outbound,
my business exploded in a great way,
you know,
because I never had the opportunity to have an inbound leads that same level
because I never had the control and the marketing piece.
But once I could control both,
it was like, I mean, it was just like, it’s like shooting like fish in a barrel,
you know?
So if you can do both,
it gives you better control on your future, better control on the pipeline.
But on top of that, you know your org will have more fun.
They’ll have far more fun when the reps actually know
they can control their future
versus saying, hey, the market is not good,
the leads aren’t good, but you can give them really good leads
and also give them proper training, supporting in the systems to win.
You know you’re going to see better results, lower turnover,
and that’s gonna be better for your company across the board.
This is music to my ears.
I can’t count the number of sleepless nights I’ve had as a marketing leader.
When the business is 100% outbound.
It just feels like I carry the weight of the world on my shoulders.
And it’s really inspiring to hear sales leaders and, people in the sales field,
like you say, hey, outbound is still there,
and we can still do it, and we can be successful.
And according to you, make it even more fun.
So, yeah. Definitely inspiring.
Absolutely.
Where can folks go if they want to learn more about you and your coaching services?
Yeah, hundred percent, so you can find me on LinkedIn.
Look at Marcus Chan.. Very easy. I’m also on YouTube.
Or you can go to VenliConsulting.com.
Nice.
I definitely recommend Marcus as a follow on LinkedIn for anyone out there,
so please check him out.
Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Closing Time.
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