If deals keep slipping through the cracks, alignment could be the culprit.
We’re unpacking how culture
and collaboration can turn alignment into real revenue growth.
On today’s episode of Closing Time.
Thanks for tuning in to Closing Time, the show for Go to Market Leaders.
I’m Val Riley, head of marketing for Unbounce, Insightly, and LeadsRx.
We are welcoming back. Jeff Davis to the show.
He is the author of Create Togetherness.
Jeff, thanks for coming back. Val.
Thank you for having me back,. I appreciate it. Looking forward to that.
Forward to the conversation.
So we were talking about your big ideas for collaboration and we got down
so many rabbit holes, which were wonderful that we only covered three of the five.
So I asked you to come back so we can dig into the rest.
How does that sound? it sounds awesome.
All right, so last time we talked about alignment as an operating system,
business design flaws and the real tax of being misaligned.
So the final two big ideas, are going to be covered today.
And just for anyone who’s tuning in fresh, what’s changed in the way
leaders are talking about alignment lately?
Yeah, I, I reflected on this one
and I would say,
you know, I’ve been doing this work for quite some time
focused on looking at sales and marketing alignment.
And so for me, when I look at personal experiences,
the conversations and interviews. I’ve had with,
senior revenue leaders, as well as just, you know, research staying up to date.
There are many things that have changed, many for the better.
And I would say two, that are probably are at the top of my list
or that that kind of rise to the top are, alignment really has become
a strategic necessity.
And I think leaders are finally recognizing that.
I would say, you know, beginning my work, which is probably nearly
7 to 10 years now.
Sales marketing alignment was not really talked about to be, to be honest with you.
And, I started, you know, blogging and that sort of thing.
And there wasn’t a lot of receptivity.
I think that a lot of leaders look at it as a nice to have.
I think we have finally shifted over into the thought process
that leaders recognize that it is a strategic necessity.
It is no longer a nice to have.
And in order for you really to do business
with the modern buyer, you have to focus on alignment.
I think a couple of things that have,. I would say, forced the hand is, you know,
we have a very digital first buyer, back in the day.
And, and you’ve you’re aware this you didn’t have access
to all of these channels.
You didn’t have access immediate access to your peers to get their point of view.
And so a lot of companies that recognizes that we have to be in all the places
that our customers are, and the only way you can do that
is to truly have an online effort across sales and marketing.
In addition to that, I think you have seen the buying committee,
you know, some in some cases doubled in size.
Over the last years.
And so, again, not only are you talking to one key stakeholder or a few key
stakeholders, you’re having to manage a group, sometimes 10 to 15 people having
singular
conversations that are aligned and are moving the account toward purchase.
So I think all those things have have raised the stakes for revenue leaders
to recognize that alignment is a necessity and no longer nice to have.
And then the second one. I think that we’ll get to get to during
a conversation is, rev ops really emerging from emerging
as a function that kind of operationalize is
what I’d like to say, operationalizes alignment.
You know, it really removes the silos and creates this ownership
that is really necessary in order to actually make alignment happen.
So I would say for me, as I think through how the focus of
so focused on sales, market alignment has shifted
in how leaders are recognizing things differently.
I think those two things around alignment being a necessity or a strategic,
lever that we can use in order to be more competitive in the marketplace.
And then secondly, rev ops are really emerging
as this new way, a new approach to really operationalize alignment.
Yeah, let’s let’s pick right up there.
Because
when I was looking at the five big ideas, this one definitely stood out to me.
And it really is about that one source of truth
for the organization and rev ops owning that source of truth.
So first of all, as a CRM company, you are speaking our language there.
But specifically, why is Rev Ops the owner?
Because I think that is so crucial to harmony within
sales and marketing is when when Rev ops really owns those data points.
Yeah.
When I look at my approach to sales, to market alignment,
I at the end of the day, I’m
going to strategists and I’m always looking at like,
how do we strategically align these two functions.
But as of recently I have changed.
I think the way that I think about sales
and marketing alignment over the last couple of years.
I would say, you know, many years ago,. I really was convinced
that if we aligned strategy
and sales and marketing understood that they had one strategic vision,
that we really could work together in a different way.
And it’s not that. I don’t think that’s true, but I think it
I think this that statement or that that line I thought was incomplete,
as I have really
been thinking about it in a modern way.
And a lot of this has been has changed because technology
has changed and evolved.
We know that marketing tech exploded many years ago.
Sales tech came right after.
And so we now have the tools in order to look at things differently.
And so rev ops offers an opportunity to,
in my opinion, really operationalize alignment.
Before I think we had the strategy in some organizations,
they had an align culture.
We had all the components.
But at the end of the day, we still were relying on sales ops and marketing ops
and somebody to connect the dots, and the more people you have in the room
and the more people you have in the conversation,
you’re still playing telephone.
And so now that we have the technological maturity
and a lot of organizations are really, you know, leveling up their digital
maturity, rev ops provides that platform for us really to truly have
a single source of truth, because there is one owner
right in prior to, you know, rev ops really coming on the scene.
We had very disconnected systems with disconnected platforms.
The tech stack was bloated.
You had, you know, people were buying things in silos.
And so there was no real way to truly work together.
And let’s be honest, at the end of the day, a lot of stacks
were just wasting money because things are under utilized.
The data was a mess.
And so I am really excited about what rev ops
provides an organization and what it what its function is.
And so I think that’s why you’re seeing a fairly quick uptake of that,
that approach by most organizations, especially on the enterprise level.
And so really so. I think we’re at about half 52% or so
in the mid-market space of them also, adopting the Rev ops approach.
Yes, I will say it resonates so well with me
because I can remember a time before there was Rev ops
and it almost felt like there was this moment where, hey,
these leads or this effort or this initiative left marketing
and went to sales and and there was always that bit of a gap.
And I really do feel like rev ops fills that gap and just makes
the organization and both sales and marketing so much more successful.
And I agree with you.
I remember times when I was a seller where, you know, I was,
you know, in my car in the territory trying to figure out why
my sales data did not line up with my marketing insights,
and then trying to directionally which one’s true.
And, and you never were able to get a real
like clarity on like what wasn’t, what was really going on.
And so you were always
even though we had a wealth of data, we were kind of guessing
because one report would say one thing and then the other report
would say something else, and then it’s just like it was very frustrating.
So I think where this really helps everybody is, there is one sort of truth.
There’s one report, there’s one number.
And then we’re all, you know, reacting to and able to support the business
based on the same song sheet, so to say, or, or information.
So it to me it’s a game changer.
Yeah. Agree.
Okay.. We’re going to get to the fifth big idea.
And I just think this one is huge.
You call it culture as the foundation for a sustainable alignment.
So why does culture matter so much when it comes
to keeping the sales and marketing teams in alignment?
I started to ask myself a different question.
I always ask myself. I would focus on again
because I’m a strategist,
align strategy and, and everybody’s on the same song sheet
and we’re all moving in the right direction.
But I kind of turn with in recent years, turn that question upside down
to say what prevents organizations from either
a not getting aligned or b not able to sustain alignment?
Because we see in many cases, organizations will have an alignment
effort.
It’ll last for a couple quarters, and then it goes back to what it was
before, right. Human behavior.
And I think what I found time and time again is I really started
to think about this and dig into the data and have conversations
is the one component that was not was not fully addressed,
and that organizations that couldn’t maintain it or achieve
it was they didn’t have the right culture in order to build alignment on.
And what I mean by that is and I don’t mean like
because this is certainly where you go, right?
Leaders are like,. I don’t have time to create this culture.
And they’re thinking like workshops and offsite and rah,
rah, rah and signs in the hallway that it’s not what I mean.
I mean, truly looking at, you know,
organizational psychology to create culture that
creates an environment where
people can behave in a way that does a lot of what you’re trying to achieve.
And so you look at where research from like, Amy
Edmondson out of Harvard, she talks about psychological safety.
And it is important because not just because
it’s the right thing to do is that you do not get the outputs
and have a real conversations you need to have.
If people don’t feel safe and or feel like it’s not going to make a difference.
And so you can do all these things.
You can have rev ops, you can, you know, have an aligned, Strategy.
You can have all the reporting lines.
But if people don’t fundamentally trust each other,
they don’t want to work together.
They don’t have a way to work together.
Then it doesn’t work.
And so I really challenge myself and I challenge, you know, revenue leaders
to say you have to start with the culture
in order for everything to build on top of it and actually function
because, because if we do all this work, it may work for a while.
But if we’re talking about sustainable, sustainable transformation
and more predictable, more predictable outcomes,
it has to be built on a strong foundation
where we fundamentally see ourselves as one unified team.
We have interconnected outcomes, and we truly see ourselves
as a revenue engine versus functions that happen to just work side by side
to kind of achieve a similar goal.
And so that’s why has, you know, in recent years, felt that culture really
is the primary foundation
of if you’re really going to talk about transforming sales and marketing
into an aligned revenue engine, it has to start with culture.
Yeah.
There is a tendency in sales and marketing to have that us them mentality
where, oh, if the leads were better, we would be doing more.
Or if they were working the leads harder, we would be doing better.
So really in sales and marketing, it’s it’s so easy to fall into that pit.
So what are some signs of a healthy versus unhealthy sales marketing culture?
And I’d like to follow up on that by asking about the role
that leadership plays there. Yeah.
So one thing I I’ll share a little bit of story with you and then get into kind of
what I see is those primary indicators of a healthy or unhealthy.
So I made the transition from sales and marketing quite, quite early in my career.
And I naively always thought that, like, marketing was an ivory tower
and they were justifying their high salaries because, you know, we got paid,
you know, six figures to do print brochures and update the website,
not fully understanding what it took to be a marketer.
And I know a lot of people, especially if you’re in field
sales, sometimes even sales leadership feel the same way.
I think for a lot of organizations that has changed, I hope most.
But I say that I say all that to say when I actually transition
into brand marketing, one of the things I noticed,
and one of the things
that was the most challenging for me, is that the culture is different,
and it’s different by virtue of the role and the function
that marketing is serving.
The time horizon is longer.
You have to work through people.
So you’re doing much more, you know, leading with authority.
You have to get stakeholder alignment across different functions.
That’s not stereotypically something that a salesperson is doing.
So they’re rewarded for taking quick action.
Being bold and aggressive,
there is just something different fundamentally I need to do.
And so when I say so you have to resolve
that because by virtue like this is what we do.
And so that was my aha moment to say, oh, like marketing
culture is different by virtue of the work that they’re doing.
So as a leader, I have got to find a way to bring us together
so that while in our individual functions, we’re going to operate how we operate.
But the higher level culture is that we are all
focused on the
same outcomes in a way that is complementary to each other.
And so when I look at kind of unhealthy signs in, you know,
you’ll stereotypically see this across organizations that or the misaligned.
There is.
Well let me start with the healthy first.
And then we’ll go to the we’ll go to the negative.
You’ll see shared goals and a planning rhythm.
So goals or you know, top down state typically starting with revenue.
And there is some sort of planning rhythm or cadence that we do together.
A hallmark sign that there is going to be tension between
sales and marketing is that there is no, co-creation, for the planning cycle.
If you’re not in the same room planning,. I automatically know
is going to be tension and there’s an issue.
I would also say back to what we talked about at the top of the conversation,
there’s a psychological safety between sales and marketing.
Especially leadership.
If sales and marketing leadership can have honest conversation
with each other without being combative or going into turf wars.
That’s the biggest indicator that the rest of the organization is pretty healthy.
And you see that many times for sales and marketing leaders,
they get along really well.
And it is seen they recognize
what the other one brings to them as a benefit versus,
only focus on what they are being held accountable for.
And so that to me is I when I see that it’s
automatically triggered, that that’s a healthy relationship.
And then I’d say last but not least, learning from each other.
So, Deb Messick,
she’s a PhD who focuses on, close relationships and collaboration.
I’ve referenced her work a number of times within my book,
in my work and articles, whatnot.
And one of the things that she talks about that really stood out to me,
there are different levels of collaboration,
which she goes into her work and I won’t. I won’t dive into that too deeply.
But one of the things she says,
when you get to a true collaborative relationship is there is a
there’s a mutual learning from each other and a mutual benefit from each other.
And it and it resonates with me because I think the things like marketing,
providing insights to sales, to be able to have
tailored, personalized conversations with a prospect.
Right.
That is something that we’re able to offer you to help you,
but then also having a feedback loop to hear directly from sales,
frontline sales, not just sales leadership,
because by the time that gets up, sometimes it’s a little scrubbed.
I didn’t say that out loud, but we know how that works.
But having some sort of mechanism, whether it be a sales council,
whatever that is, to hear directly from sales, to get the boots on the ground POV
and then be able to, you know, tell them that, hey, we heard you.
And this is how we implemented that to close that loop.
I think that’s also another one that you’re able
to have that sort of conversation and relationship.
It’s a healthy sign.
And then I’d say, you know,
the reverse of that on the unhealthy, you know, competing success metrics.
So if I do, if. I do what I’m supposed to do
and you do with your post
to do that, don’t necessarily correlate and get us to where we need to be.
Multiple versions of the truth related to our Reb ops conversation.
The data is just not aligned.
Our reports are saying different things, and so we’re arguing
that we were doing the right thing and that we know what we’re supposed to do,
which is the truth, but we have different versions of the truth.
And then last but not least,
you know, the stereotypical, you know, turf wars where sales, you know,
calling out marketing because the leads are terrible and vice versa.
So, those are the kind of high level, things that
I see when you look at a healthy relationship between sales and marketing.
And then, a less healthy relationship between sales and marketing.
Yeah I mean just everything you’re saying is resonating just in my daily practice,
I had a relationship with the head of sales once.
That was very special because we were both hired at the same time.
We were both interviewing at the same time,
and we were able to meet each other before either of us took the role.
And I remember walking in the room and thinking,
and I said to him, you know,. I’m really interested in this job
and it’s a pleasure to meet you.
But if we don’t hit it off, I’m walking like I.
This relationship has got to be spot on.
And, and, you know, in order for me to really be interested in taking this job.
And he echoed the same sentiment and we ended up both taking the roles.
And really, it was the foundation for an excellent relationship, because
even if we disagreed, we kept it behind closed doors
and, worked through.
And then when we came in front of the
teams jointly, we always presented a unified front.
And, it really made for a very healthy culture.
Of course, a company that was very successful and ended
up being acquired, which, you know, was the was the was the winning deal.
But, it really does start at the top
with a healthy relationship with, at the leadership level.
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more.
And it was actually really, really insightful
and very smart of you to be like, let’s have this conversation now.
Because you’re right,
that energy between sales and marketing leadership dictates everything else.
Like the whole marketing team will disregard sales and vice versa.
I’ve seen organizations where, you know, they’re very sales focus.
Sales leadership gets priority from its executive team.
Marketing is either seeing their sales support or just their.
And that permeates the organization.
And it’s a way to sales engages with marketing
the way the sales leader engages with marketing.
So it is truly that is you know, there’s
I think leadership always has to set the tone.
But I think that relationship especially is very visible.
And it’s not, if it’s not a healthy one.
Yeah, absolutely.
I also thought something you said was super interesting about how different
the roles on the marketing team are versus the roles on the sales team,
because sales people are often, you know, they can be that lone wolf.
They, they, they can, dictate their own schedule.
They can run their own show and, and still be very successful
and still be a healthy contributing member of the sales team.
Really in marketing. You can’t do that.
I always use the analogy that I got from a former
CMO of mine of marketing is like a soccer team, right?
Like we have to pass everything back and forth.
We have a very wide playing surface, so to speak, with the many, many channels
we operate in.
And we need each other in order to be successful,
like the writers need designers and the designers need
the paid media team, and everybody needs the digital team.
And we all need the web team to be looking for growth opportunities.
So like, we all are so interconnected.
And so when you think what you observed was very keen in that,
the cultures within those teams can be very different.
Yeah.
And to be honest with you,
when I made the transition from sales and marketing, it wasn’t so much quote
unquote, the work that I struggle with, like transparently amongst friends.
It was the culture because I was rewarded for it.
To your point, all those long, I’m sorry, lone wolf behaviors
because I had a territory,. I had to drive business.
And no one gives you a manual that says now that you’re in marketing,
you need to be more collaborative.
Come in and and don’t talk up in meetings unless you, you know, understand
the dynamics of who’s who
and you understand your cross-functional partners
and go to the mid break early so that you can get a concept review
before you push things through.
This is very healthcare specific, because everything is highly regulated.
No one gives you that in your, you know, onboarding manual, so to say.
And so a lot of that I had to learn by trial and error it like it is.
And I’ve talked to many sales salespeople that have transition to marketing.
It is somewhat jarring how different it is. Right.
And, you know, if you have a mentor, you have that leadership.
They can help you get through that.
But it is very different and rightfully so.
I’m not making a judgment there per se.
But if you have not made that transition,. I don’t think you fully understand
that, fully internalize how different the cultures are.
Jeff I feel like we could talk for hours.
So those were the final two big ideas.
Is there anything you want to say to kind of wrap up the five big ideas?
Because I really like I said,. I’ve learned a lot from talking to you.
Thank you.
I would say, well, first of all,
thank you for the opportunity to kind of share
some of the things I’ve been musing on and thinking about and, you know,
nerding out on which is what I do when it comes to market alignment.
Don’t judge me on that.
But I would say at the end of the day,. I think, you know,
I think these five big ideas are really kind of leading how I’m
thinking about taking a more thoughtful approach to operationalizing alignment.
It is not easy.
It is going to get more difficult as things get more complex.
But I do feel like we have the technology to support what we’re trying to do.
I think the biggest
thing I would
want listeners to remember is. I am convinced that
culture has to be the foundation for any sort of transformation that we do.
I think secondarily, in order
to operationalize alignment, we’re going it has to be done by rev ops.
I think a lot of organizations that will that will, you know, be laggards
and transform transforming to this approach
will continue to find it difficult and more difficult.
And so at the end of the day, we can be aligned in everything else.
But if we can’t actually operationalize it, it’s just it’s not going to stick.
And that impacts everything from being able to, you know, sustaining
your, sustainably grow, being able to have more accurate forecasting, etc., etc..
And so I would say those those are the probably the biggest,
you know, things I would want anybody if they didn’t listen to anything else
we said or anything else we talked about, and hopefully it’s not the case,
that they walk away with that and really think about
taking on alignment, transformation, effort
to make sure that these things are the cornerstone of the work that they do.
And I get excited about this stuff.
So there’s so much opportunity here.
And I hope those that listen to
the podcast will also feel that way after they get done listening to us.
I know I’m energized.
Jeff, as a reminder, where can folks find your book, Create Togetherness.
Yeah. So we’re on all platforms.
Amazon is probably the easiest.
You can go and search, create togetherness, you know, pop up.
You can also follow me on LinkedIn.
My handle is @ meet Jeff Davis.
Everything is also linked there too.
So, hopefully feel free to go out and get my first book.
And obviously some of the things
that we talked about today, my, my thinking has evolved,
but I think that’s a great place to start with.
Just my point of view of how we should approach aligning sales and marketing.
And and obviously we know what many benefits, but we don’t have time for
So many.
Jeff, thank you so
much for joining us for not just one, but two episodes of Closing Time.
Val, thank you for having me.. I really appreciate the opportunity.
All right.
And remember, you can get this episode delivered right to your inbox.
Just click the link in the show notes.
We will see you next week.
