Are you considering becoming a fractional go to market executive?
Learn how to launch your business on this episode
of Closing Time.
Welcome to Closing Time, the show for go to market leaders.
I’m Val Riley, head of marketing for Insightly CRM, Unbounce, and LeadsRx.
Today I am joined by Sangram Vajre.
He is co-founder of GTM partners and author of the bestselling book move!
Welcome back Sangram.
Val as you said, like I’m this is like the third time you said on this one.
So I’m excited to be here.
And, hopefully it’s not because of lack of guests.
Because I know you can you can bring great people.
But hopefully we can have more insightful conversation.
Well, I’d be remiss if I didn’t share with our audience that,
this is your third time, as you mentioned, and your episode on Go to
Market Motions is actually the most watched episode of Closing Time ever. Wow.
Yeah. I actually thank you for sending me the link.
I was like, oh, okay.
That that was that was good.
And that reminded me of how important those, those nuggets are.
As people are trying to make their decision.
Yeah, absolutely.
And and we’ve brought you back because something has sort of
spurred from that from your go to market. Advisors business.
And that’s what we’re going to dive into today.
But let’s set the stage first, because I do believe
the macroeconomic environment today
is moving people into fractional roles.
What do you think is happening?
Well, primarily the the two biggest trends that are happening, Val,
that I can see and we’re as you said, we are primarily a research advisory firm.
So we have been doing a lot of advisory and research on this one,
and it kept popping up over the last couple of years.
And what we see is that everybody recognizes that we have
when we we went from being growth at all cost efficient growth.
And that has been the rallying cry for a better part of 2024 or 2025.
But what does that really mean?
And when we work
with CEOs and executives on the go to market, they’re trying to figure out
what is the best and most efficient way to to run their business.
And a lot of them, they’re recognizing they don’t need
executives on a full time basis.
They need executives.
They need people like you and I who have been there, done
that, have battle scars to show, know how to do, go through all of those things,
but they don’t necessarily recognize in their growth cycle.
They don’t really need that many hours from it.
They actually need a strategic adult in the room,
if you will, going through certain stages of their business, primarily
problem market fit or product market fit or platform market fit.
And there are very specific things.
So that’s one that just just across the board that has been happening.
And the second thing is that a lot of folks in their late 30s,
40s, 50s and even 60s, they’re recognizing that, we
we all have signed up on a W-2 working 80 hours for 40 hours.
You know, in that motion
and realize that we are really going after one job to another,
and there’s a lot of stress and work and and recognizing that
that that may not be the best way to, to lead the rest of your life.
And, and a lot of us think, like man, and I’ve been talking to some of them
where, yeah, I’m a CMO, for example.
But I know a lot about the business now.
I don’t want to be pigeonholed as just a marketer anymore.
I’m a business leader, so they’re growing up, maturing themselves,
but also about the business.
And they want variety of like, what if I had like 2 or 3 clients?
And here’s the most fascinating thing about this, Val, is this trend appears.
Most people are realizing that they just need 2 or 3
clients paying them seven 10,000 a month.
And it’s very possible, which is very cost effective for a CEO
to bring an executive for five, seven, five, seven, 10,000 a month,
then having $300,000, executive.
And for the individual who’s an executive, if they have 2 or 3 clients,
they’re going to make more money than they would have made as a full time.
So they feel the freedom and excitement about it
and feel like they’re actually doing what they’re supposed to do
and bringing that years of experience together.
So both from a business perspective for people, for business
as CEOs and for individuals as they’re walking into it.
It’s starting to make a lot more sense right now.
I will say, I at this time, leading a marketing team, I have done that before.
We’re using more contractors
than we ever had before, just so much economic uncertainty.
So I agree with you 100%.
It’s it’s like the lifestyle of the folks that you want to hire.
Plus, the macroeconomic environment is making it ripe for this type of business.
I really like you alluded to this briefly how your fractional executive business
was really born because GTM advisors is, is your main business,
and that consultancy is where you were focusing on helping companies.
But then you started to see this, this new type of business emerging.
So tell me about how you first
recognize those signals and how you’ve capitalized on them.
Well, what was really fascinating about
all of this was towards mid or late last year,
since we have done a lot of roadshows teaching
go to market to many different cities, we have gone through,
I think 20 different cities and just did this roadshow where we go
through 15, go to market problems that go to market operating system
and will people get our books and all of that.
And what we saw was people then a few weeks later saying
it’s like, hey, I actually run that workshop and I’m actually doing this.
I’m using your framework and this and that.
And they will ask questions and we’re like,
okay, but that’s not the right way to do it.
You should do it this way.
And and Brian and I, who you, the co-founders of GTM Partners,
we both realized that, man, this, we need to help these people.
We need to help them build a proper book of business.
We want to help them do this the right way.
Otherwise they’re going to use our frameworks
and sometimes may not actually do what
that framework is meant to be and not meant to do and how to do it.
So late last year we said, you know what?
Instead of trying to say no, why don’t we just lean into it?
And we started with a few, I’ll tell you story of like Sue Foley, who is a CMO of,
CMO for 30 years, and people can check her out on, on, on LinkedIn.
She became one of our first fractional go to market leader.
She’s based out of Australia.
And she’s like,
as soon as I got these frameworks,. I just developed this confidence in it.
And she went from not having a single deal going
to closing four deals in a month, in 30 days.
And that’s when we realized the power of like, oh, we could actually productize,
if you will, all the offering that we have done and give it to them.
And they actually could have a life changing thing and Val, for, for
you know me long enough to know at this stage of my life and career,
making another buck and making another, you know,
it is not what drives us, anymore.
Right? Like we want to see change.. We want to see impact.
We want to see life.
And this can help individuals do and in this late 40s, 50,
we are all putting kids into college.
We are all trying to figure out, well,
how do we how do we have a rest of our life.
We are all trying and planning other things.
Some are becoming grandparents
and all like we’re trying to do that and we have all this experience to do it.
But most people have never gone from a W-2 to a 1099
or to a business owner, and that has been the greatest shift for most people.
It’s not.
They know everybody knows what to do,
but then how to do it is where they are struggling.
And we just found that, well, we are just a natural thing
where we are teachers by nature.
So we create frameworks by by default.
And if we can teach everyone how to use it, we get to now see
our frameworks go much further than what. Brian and I could have done by ourselves.
It’s an inspiring story.
And and I think, when you talk about W-2 to 1099, right,
because that’s really the shift for those of us who have had
w-2s for, you know, ten, 20, 30 years at this point.
What I really like that you have done is you have transformed the nomenclature
and you’ve moved away from, oh, I’m just a consultant
to I’m a GTM leader for hire.
And I really do feel those words matter.
What what was the catalyst behind trying to use that type of language?
It’s a great question, Val.
We we struggle with that initially.
I’m a CMO marketing.
We were thinking, well, it’s a CMO fractional thing.
And then we started to see because we created
this operating system, CROs using it.
Well maybe it’s a marketing sales thing.
Then we saw rev ops people wanting to use this because it tells the whole story.
It helps you build a proper business.
And then ultimately what we found out and learned through the Move book
and everything is that ultimately go to market is the business.
It’s not a new thing.
It’s not a different thing. It’s actually the business.
That’s what we call our company,. GTM partners. So.
So if that’s the case, then when you have 20 years,
30 years of experience, you actually become a business leader
and you really understand go to market at large.
And what executives
and the CEOs that we have been advising, they don’t need another CMO anymore.
Like for the most part,
they know they need a marketing expertise, but they need a business leader
when they interview a for even for full time, they are.
We may think that somebody gets hired of the CMO or a CRO,
but they’re really looking for a business leader, a business partner
who can understand how to do really good in that one vertical.
But they expect them to understand the business at large.
So we made a very conscious decision in the beginning,
not called as a fractional CMO, or even that a lot of CMO and closing it,
would call it fractional go to market leader.
Like as you said, because we want this to be the way you run your business.
And that’s what we are helping all of them.
How do you do a 90 day sprint at the executive level?
How do you workshop so you can create that alignment and trust and clarity for it?
How do you go through the eight question
go to market operating system that will bring the team together?
Those things require you to act as a go to market leader and not as a CMO.
It almost might be negative
if you just go into the CMO, they’re like, well, give me, give me leads.
And then again, we walk into the same problem
that we all are desperately trying to get out of.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, you think about your role as an executive in a company.
You know, for me, I’m the head of marketing,
but sitting on the executive team, advising the CEO,
listening to my colleagues, listening to the financial performance of the business,
that’s just as much part of the job as it is
making sure we’re getting the right number of leads
and we’re going to the right events and such.
So it really is a balance. yeah.
And we are seeing more and more people actually finding,
we call it the fraction freedom, now, in many ways,
because it’s freeing to people to see that, you know what?
I can go in a meeting, do my part, help the team get a line,
and then walk away and not worry about all the emotions that come with
all the other things that happen. Right.
And now I can do it for 2 or 3.
So some folks like in many cases,. Lydia is another example.
Who has been a CMO for 20 years in legal tech.
And so we are helping her to be a legal tech, fractional go to market leader.
And that has
opened up her entire new line, because now it’s that that’s all she does.
And you need again, 2 or 3 clients on a regular basis that will make
all the money you could, you would want as it and still have a lifestyle business.
So we call it more of the freedom.
And it’s not the money necessarily the freedom to do what you are
really spent ten, 20, 30 years learning the craft of it.
You, every one of us, need to come to a point where realizing that, man,
I can do this for 2 or 3, companies and I could be tremendous value to that
because we all gain wisdom in the process of last 20, 30 years of experience.
And if there are frameworks around it so that I can just orient the conversation
and then still be me, still be you, where you could say, well,
in the legal tech,
this is what I understand in construction, this is what it is in the CRM space.
This is what it is.
It allows you to be you, but you use the framework to open up
the conversation, to set the stage.
And that’s really where a lot of people struggle.
So it’s been a fascinating experience to do this well.
Let’s dive in a little bit more there in terms of finding
your niche as a fractional go to market leader.
It used to be that you wanted to go pretty broad,
but your advice seems to be saying,
hey, if you have a specific industry and a specific sub area of that industry,
you could be even more valuable as a fractional executive.
It’s ABM 101, in many ways, right.
Because the, the the interesting thing about
this is most people that we work with have built 20,
30, 40, $50 million pipeline for their businesses.
So as a result of us, the
this we all think about is like, man,. I got to have more people, more eyeballs.
And I need to be a LinkedIn influencer.
I need to create selfies for myself.
Oh, I see that person doing that.
It actually is the exact opposite.
Most people who are successful and they are in go to market right now,
in fractional role, they have a 100, 200, and 300 maybe followers on LinkedIn.
It’s not about that.
They have 30 years of being part of a PR
firm or a construction, industry, and they have been the best at the craft.
They just need to package up and reach out to the right people in that industry.
So it’s really ABM 101 and it all it takes a minute
for everybody to realize all you need is 3 to 5 clients.
That’s all you need.
And most of those clients will be more than happy.
Another way to look at is it’s a perfect combination
of CapEx versus OpEx conversation.
CapEx would be like, you know, capital
expenditure in the company would be tools and technology.
And that’s when even in many cases that you’re really saying, well,
if I hire
somebody for, let’s say, 300 K, you start looking at and breaking it down,
but in a fraction, oh, I’m going to hire somebody for three months or four months,
see how it goes.
The most the company is going to lose or spend on is 30 K 40 K.
So for them 300 K versus 30 give makes a lot of difference.
Like like no brainer.
But for you,
ten K from three different clients make a whole lot of difference for you.
So when you look at the economics, it’s not volume.
It’s actually less very focused, ICP driven.
But like will ask people like what?
Go don’t go to the B2B. SMX as a general thing.
Go to an industry trade show in your area
that that actually you’re expert at so that there is no competition for you.
So really,
a doctor needs a doctor kind of thing.
Like, most people are really good at helping their companies be successful.
We’re trying to help them be successful because that that’s where a lot of it is.
So the first thing we do is
we do two discovery calls with them and help them figure out their niche.
A lot of times they just need to talk through it.
Them like, oh, you actually have seven years of experience in construction.
Why are you not saying that? Well, I had, but I also have this.
I’m like, that’s great. You can use that.
But why don’t be the king or queen of construction business.
And and it takes a moment for people to accept that they can actually be.
And that actually can be freedom and fulfilling for them.
So I feel like you started going down the path, but let’s keep going on it.
Talk to me a little through a little bit about what the curriculum
actually looks like.
Yeah.
The first thing we, we do is we just help everybody recognize
what does it mean to go from W-2 to 1099.
And I think that’s just to get their mindset.
It’s really been fascinating for me is like just the mindset part of it.
The other thing we do is they now get certified on the
go to market operating system.
It is a masterclass for about eight hours.
Well, they go through the entire eight pillars of the operating system.
We want them to understand full go to market.
If they have done Rev ops or CMO or CRO, we want them to be really certified in it,
so that’s part of it.
Then once they are done with that, we put them on a marketplace
where we help them, the PE firms and all the other firms that we work with,
we actually actively promote
these people to those because they are now certified in our work.
And then we literally have two mastermind calls every month.
Now we’re trying to do maybe three, but at least two where we one
focus on acquisition, very much helping them get their first five clients
so they can get up and running and get that early win in it.
And then the other one is really delivery.
How do you make sure you don’t price for hours?
You actually price,
for a initiative and a project so that you can actually create that.
A lot of we made a lot of mistakes.
Well, in the first year or two,
Brian and I would be like, all right, we’ll do this.
And then we overdid it or we did it.
And now we charge for our and then all.
And then people are paying us three months later all the stuff mistakes.
So what we are doing is helping them, not worry about all of it.
We’re giving a SOWs or MSAs so they can understand.
A lot of people
have been there and sign SOWs, but they never created their own SOW, right.
You know, so so it’s like a new thing for them.
And then we give them all of our branding and frameworks so that on LinkedIn
they appear well put together from day one as opposed to going all of it.
We do the discovery calls, as I said, to make sure we and help them understand
what should they write about?
We’re not forcing them to write.
Write five times a week that gets actually is not what we give them a proper
framework of how to comment, how to post, and who to reach out to
and for the next ten weeks.
Everyone starts with a ten week challenge, and within ten weeks,
our goal is to go from having no clients or at least
having 2 to 5 clients, and therefore they’ll have the confidence to do it for.
I love the, the mastermind group where you’re,
you know, you’re as part of the curriculum,
it sounds like you’re
connecting other fractional go to market leaders with each other.
If they have questions like about the nuts and bolts of stuff, is that a great.
It sounds like that could be a great way to talk about it.
Like, you know, setting up taxes or setting up, invoicing or stuff like that.
It feels like you’re kind of you’re creating really a community.
It’s an isolation.
more of that for for people who have teams before.
People are used to working in teams, and all of a sudden
they’re working by themselves and they’re like, well,
how do I put a website together?
Should I have an LLC or S-corp
instead of all these basic questions that actually might cripple them
from actually getting to a DM that will pay them ten K,
but they’re they’re struggling with those basic things.
So yeah, absolutely.
But even more interestingly, Val, when we do the mastermind,
because we also created a slack group for them every day people are saying,
hey, I just got a meeting and I got an appointment, and here’s
what I’m doing.
And it’s a very generous group because they all we are all sharing,
like the same same thing and a little bit of a stigma
or fractional being, like people who are looking for
jobs versus fractional being a lifestyle business.
And so some of them are really want this to be successful.
So that makes everybody like, man, yeah, that’s great.
One of the things we implemented well, this literally last week,
we introduced a accountability partner.
So what’s happening for all of them is like, no, you don’t have to do it alone.
A CMO can have a CRO as an accountability partner
or a director VP or something from a different in that group.
And so once a week they meet just outside of everything, and
just talk about what they’re going through and how they’re doing things.
So you are not alone is one of the biggest things that we’re trying to do.
And just surround with everything so that they can get
their first 3 to 5 clients, because that literally changes everything.
So why is that the threshold, in your opinion?
Like 3 to 5.
What about that is a magic number.
Well, first honestly, everybody walks in with a little bit of
not sure kind of mindset like, is this going to really work for me.
And they have value that most of folks have been to.
So they have like really mortgage payments, car payments.
And they’re like,
is this going to play all of it, health insurance like they have all
everyone has all of these questions about it.
And obviously as you go on 1099, you know, you have to figure all of that
on your own.
So this is a little bit of like not sure mentality as you walk into this.
And so as soon as you’re like okay, fine, I’ll do it.
But is that going to give me a client or two.
Was that.
And as soon as you get a client and they start paying
you ten K a month on the other client, you get 20 karma and you’re like,
wait a minute, this is real.
This actually works.
I’m actually free, actually.
Get my Friday, still free.
And I can do what I need to do.
It just changes their mindset around it.
And then people like Sue and Shelly and Dawn, who are all like,
all on LinkedIn and on the marketplace, you can see them there just having
this energy about them, that comes in after they get the first or two.
So about 3 to 5 is when they actually recognize, oh,
this is not a let me just try this for six months kind of thing.
This is actually what I’m going to do for the rest of my life.
And that shift happens when you get the first 3 to 5 clients.
I’m glad you kind of touched on that,
because it really is a magic number in many ways.
So very excited about this course.
Can you direct folks, if they’re interested, where they could
find more information about it?
Yeah, you everybody can go to my LinkedIn profile
and in the featured section, it’s like the very first thing we do a free course
for people to go watch the recording.
You can hear from all the other people in it.
We do that because if, if even if they don’t use the our process
of doing it, they want to learn how to become, a fraction
if they want to just do it on their own and have ideas around that.
So literally go to my, LinkedIn profile and look at the featured section
on fractional business.
Amazing.
Sangram, thank you again for coming back to our show
and for sharing this exciting new venture that you have.
Yeah. Thank you.
And I hope this time it regardless of it being a really high
flying episode, I hope it’s a life changing episode for some people.
I think that would be much more impactful for me.
You know, just a two, three, five, ten people,
you know, get excited about becoming a fractional.
I think we can call this one a win.
Absolutely.
And thanks, everybody for tuning in to Closing Time.
Remember, you can get this episode delivered right to your inbox.
Just click that link in the show notes and we’ll see you next week.
